Publicis, Dentsu and the AI Red Ocean: What CMOs Must Know

The ID Comms Breakdown

The current AI and data arms race in media is really about control of identity, operating systems and investor narratives, not just better media buying. Publicis is betting big on data and AI with a $2.2 billion LiveRamp deal and ‘Marcel 2.0’, while Dentsu is quietly rebuilding trust and momentum through client retention and renewed leadership visibility.

For CMOs, Procurement Directors and Global Heads of Media, the real story is not the PR drama or the snarky videos. It is the shift in agency business models, from service businesses paid for craft to sales businesses monetizing data, technology and arbitrage. That shift creates both new opportunities and new conflicts of interest in how your media budget is deployed.

In this #MediaSnack episode, David and I unpack three essential questions: what is going on, what are the implications, and how should marketers be thinking. This breakdown follows that same structure so you can walk into Cannes, QBRs or your next pitch conversation with a clear, practical gameplan.

At ID Comms, we coach advertisers to get really good at media by focusing on three disciplines: strengthening internal capabilities, optimizing partners, and tracking every dollar of media investment. This episode is a perfect case study in why all three now matter more than ever.

The ID Comms Breakdown

What’s going on?

What are the implications?

How should marketers be thinking?

Before we dig into each of those questions in detail, a final reminder: the only question that truly matters is still simple. Can your agency maximize the impact and value of your media investments to drive business growth, and can they prove it in language your CFO believes?

How Publicis is weaponizing data, AI and PR before Cannes

Publicis is using data acquisitions, an AI‑driven operating system and provocative PR to reposition itself from holding company to technology platform in the eyes of investors and clients. The $2.2 billion acquisition of LiveRamp gives Publicis control of a vast identity spine that connects data across 25,000 publisher domains and hundreds of partners, while ‘Marcel 2.0’ packages this into one AI‑enabled operating environment for its agencies.

In the build‑up to Cannes, Publicis has been extremely active. The group resolved its public stand‑off with The Trade Desk over fees and data irregularities, reassuring clients that buying practices are under control. It then dropped a tongue‑in‑cheek, AI‑generated video accusing rival holding companies of reckless AI promises and pitch theatrics. The satire landed because every major group has played some version of that game.

For advertisers, the LiveRamp deal is the more meaningful move. Identity is fast becoming the qualifying asset for effective AI, not the AI models themselves. Anyone can license a model from a major tech platform. Owning the clean, consented, connected data that sits underneath is harder, and LiveRamp brings 800 clients and deep integrations with platforms, publishers and retail networks.

The short‑term risk is that an asset previously described as the ‘Switzerland of data’ now sits inside a single holding company. Publicis has written to rival agencies insisting that nothing will change and neutrality will be preserved, yet many of those competitors are already searching for alternatives. You should expect some turbulence as data partnerships are re‑architected.

The satirical AI video, while playful, also signals the pressure Publicis feels to win the narrative on AI leadership ahead of Cannes. In a year where, as one commentator noted, every press release seems to start with ‘AI something something’, Publicis wants its Marcel‑plus‑LiveRamp story to sound more substantial than generic ‘AI‑powered’ platforms.

What should CMOs and procurement leads do now? Start by mapping exactly where your first‑party data, clean rooms and activation platforms depend on LiveRamp. Ask Publicis, and any other partner touching that stack, to document data access rights, neutrality commitments and commercial terms in writing. Then pressure‑test how their AI‑enabled operating systems will protect your competitive advantage, not just their own margin.

Why Dentsu’s quiet resurgence matters in the ‘red ocean’ of media agencies

Dentsu’s decision to reinvest in its international business, retain Heineken and elevate Takeshi Sano as a visible global leader signals a potential renaissance at a moment when mid‑tier networks face a true survival test. Against a noisy backdrop of AI press releases, this is a more understated but strategically important story for advertisers.

Over the past 18 to 24 months, Dentsu’s international operation has been through a brutal period. The Japanese parent in Tokyo explored selling the international business, creating deep uncertainty. Existing clients feared that the partner they had chosen might be owned by someone entirely different within a few years, while new business prospects hesitated to commit. To make matters worse, Microsoft, one of Dentsu’s flagship global accounts, shifted its media to Publicis.

Many observers, including us, worried that the network might simply implode under the strain. Instead, Dentsu made two decisive moves. First, it took the international business off the market and committed to invest in growth. Second, it appointed Takeshi Sano, a long‑term Dentsu executive with a global outlook and fluent English, as CEO. Crucially, he has been highly visible with clients around the world.

The proof point came with the retention of Heineken’s global media business, a significant and highly scrutinized review. Retaining that account during such turbulence required more than a sharp PowerPoint deck. It demanded that Heineken’s leadership believed Dentsu could deliver consistent value over the next contract cycle and that ownership questions had been resolved.

This matters because of what ID Comms calls the ‘red ocean’ of agency competition. Publicis, WPP and Omnicom are mutating into AI‑driven sales and technology businesses and increasingly behave like a protected top tier. Below them sits a pressured group of networks: Dentsu, Horizon, Havas and Stagwell. These players risk being squeezed between the big three and a long tail of fully transparent, independent agencies such as Cross Media.

Dentsu now has a choice. It can follow the big three into complex arbitrage‑driven models, or it can lean into a more transparent, distinctive Japanese‑led proposition. Many CMOs describe a certain reassurance when they shake hands with a senior Japanese leader from a century‑old company rather than an ad tech start‑up. In a market where trust is fragile, that cultural asset is real.

For advertisers, Dentsu’s resurgence is good news. The industry needs a strong, entrepreneurial network that can compete credibly without simply mimicking the big three. It widens your strategic options and gives you more leverage in pitches and contract renewals, provided you ask the right questions about business model, transparency and operating system design.

What CMOs and procurement leads must ask agencies about AI, data and growth

To cut through AI hype and holding‑company theatrics, senior advertisers should focus relentless questioning on business outcomes, data control and commercial alignment. The most powerful leverage you have is a small set of precise questions that every agency should be able to answer clearly and consistently.

Start with growth. Ask: ‘How exactly will your operating system, data partnerships and AI tools maximize the impact of my media investment on sales, profit and brand strength?’ Insist on specific use cases, not abstract claims. For example, ask for a case where their tools improved on‑target reach by a stated percentage or reduced unnecessary impressions by a measurable volume.

Next, interrogate data and identity. For any agency anchored in LiveRamp or similar infrastructure, map where your first‑party data flows, who can access it and how those rights survive changes in ownership. Request a schematic that shows clean rooms, activation platforms and reporting tools. Then align this with your internal data governance and legal standards.

Third, clarify business model and conflicts. Are they primarily a service business paid for your success, or are they increasingly a sales business monetizing media, data and technology mark‑ups? Both models can work, but they create very different incentives. Ask agencies to disclose where they earn margin, including any AI ‘token’ deals, preferred platform arrangements or incentive structures with media and tech vendors.

Finally, ground everything in the three lenses we use at ID Comms. One, your internal media capabilities: do you have the talent and processes to challenge agency claims intelligently? Two, your partner strategy: are you choosing agencies and platforms that complement each other rather than locking you into a single walled garden? Three, your investment tracking: can you follow your media dollars through the system, identify value leakages and course‑correct in real time?

If the honest answer to any of those questions is ‘not yet’, that is your roadmap. AI headlines will come and go. The advertisers who protect and extend their competitive advantage in media will be the ones who build strong internal capabilities, structure transparent, high‑performing agency partnerships and measure every outcome rigorously.

If you would like to confidentially discuss your media 'gameplan' and explore your options to protect and strengthen your competitive advantage in media, get in touch with ID Comms.

Frequently Asked Questions

Q1: Why is Publicis’ LiveRamp acquisition such a big deal?
A1: Because it gives Publicis control of a powerful identity and data spine used across thousands of publishers and hundreds of partners, making data rather than AI models the core source of competitive advantage.

Q2: Does LiveRamp still act as a neutral data provider?
A2: Publicis insists that neutrality remains, and it has reassured rival agencies in writing, but many competitors are actively exploring alternative identity and data solutions.

Q3: How should I assess Marcel 2.0 as a client?
A3: Ask for specific examples of how Marcel has improved planning quality, speed or outcomes, the data sources it uses for your account and how it protects your proprietary insights from being repurposed for other clients.

Q4: What does the Publicis–The Trade Desk dispute mean for advertisers?
A4: It highlights how fees and data practices in programmatic buying still require scrutiny. Ensure your own contracts give you transparency over all technology costs and data ownership.

Q5: Is the AI hype at Cannes mostly PR noise?
A5: Much of it is, but behind the noise real transformations are happening around identity, data collaboration and automated decisioning that will affect how your media is planned and bought.

Q6: Why does Dentsu’s retention of Heineken matter to me?
A6: It is a proof point that Dentsu can still win and retain major global accounts, which strengthens its position as a credible alternative to the big three for other international advertisers.

Q7: What is the ‘red ocean’ in media agencies?
A7: It is the intensely competitive middle tier of networks like Dentsu, Havas, Horizon and Stagwell, which are under pressure between the big three holding companies and a long tail of transparent independents.

Q8: Should I consider independent agencies instead of holding companies?
A8: Yes, particularly if transparency and simplicity are your top priorities. Independents can offer cleaner commercial models, though they may lack some scale and proprietary tools.

Q9: What single question should I ask every agency CEO?
A9: ‘How will you maximise the impact and value of my media investments on business growth, and how will you prove it to my CFO?’ Then listen carefully to the specificity of the answer.

Q10: How can I future‑proof my media strategy in this AI era?
A10: Invest in internal media capabilities, choose partners whose incentives are aligned with yours, and build a robust data and measurement framework before you chase the latest AI tools.

Episode Transcript

Hello, I'm Tom Denford in New York. And I'm David Indo from London. Welcome to Media Snack Live. It's our weekly roundup of all the important news and stories and trends you need to know about the global media and marketing industry. In every show we ask what is going on, what are the implications for advertisers, and what should marketers be thinking about next. Thanks for joining us. Let's get into this week's show.

Hey, everyone. Welcome back to Media Snack Live. Uh, we are live. We're both in the UK today, aren't we? Yeah. But in, in different locations, aren't we? You're looking, you're looking really enjoying our, our wonderful weather, are you? I'm enjoying your lack of- You're a bit more flustered than you normally do. Your lack of, uh, air conditioning in this country- ... the, the, from which I hail is, is slightly disappointing. Um, uh, okay. Right, um, it's the week before Cannes. Yeah. Talking about heat, heat wave, and I think everyone's expecting, you know, 4-40 degrees on the, on the old, uh, on the coat next week. Um, but temperatures are rising ahead of that even, let's just say. Yeah. Because there's, as always, there's a bit of a PR battle, isn't there, in the week before these kind of big conferences or when the industry's gonna get together. Everyone's got big news that they want to talk about. Uh, all that news starts with two letters, AI, something, something, something.

Um, it's a perfect time just to kind of revisit Tom's amazing cartoon, uh, which I love so much. Um, if you, if you don't follow, uh, Tom Fishburne, Marketoonist, you should have a look at this because, uh, he makes fun of us all, but in that fun is the truth. And, um, this is basically what's happening, isn't it? It's like the battle of the, battle of press releases- Yeah ... that have all been written according to Tom Fishburne's rules of, uh, AI strategy here. And we're gonna particularly focus on, let's start with... There's two things we're gonna really talk about, I think, on today. One is a bit of heat that Publicis are intentionally trying to, trying to- Sure ... kick up, I think, across their, their big agency holdco rivals. Uh, so we'll talk about that because it's kind of stuff that if you're heading to Cannes or you're interested in seeing these headlines, and, uh, maybe we can just dig behind that a little bit and, and understand actually what it' means, what's going on, what are the implications.

Um, and then we wanna talk about Dentsu because amongst all this noise, Dentsu's quietly actually, I mean, maybe a little bit of a resurgence, which we were quite excited to, to see. Yeah. So, um, I know that you've, you've been kind of very enthusiastic, haven't you? About just kind of seeing them find footing again, which is- Yeah ... which I think is very positive. So, um, okay, so let- let's, uh, let's get rid of this. Let's go back to first story. Let's talk about Publicis then. So what's going on? What's been, what many things have been going on, this week?

So our friends at Publicis, they've been very busy kind of recently. I'm just gonna kind of recap a couple of the sort of the key headlines that have been associated with, uh, Publicis and Officer Dune in anticipation, I think, of, of Cannes. This is a big stellar kind of moment for them, where they're gonna do a big, uh, reveal. And I think in anticipation of that- Yeah ... they've been getting their house in order.

So a couple of small things that they've done is they've, uh, they've spent $2.2 billion, uh, acquiring a company called LiveRamp. Right. Which is essentially a kind of data spy- Yeah ... a ubiquitous data spine that connects platforms, publishers, um, brands, uh, retail networks, kind of everybody uses it. Yeah. Um, a- and, and somebody referred to it as the Switzerland of data- Yeah ... because it, it was completely impartial. Uh, no longer- Was. Yeah ... because it has been acquired in a cash deal for 2.2 billion by, by Publicis. Perhaps we'll spend- Yeah ... another episode, another, talking about the implications of that, but that's a big play. Um- Yeah.

We, we have just, we've covered that on some shorts videos when it- Right ... when the deal was happening. And, um, also subsequently, Publicis have been sending letters out to their rival agencies saying nothing to worry about. It's all gonna be- nothing changes of course, but then of course they are all- Searching for alternatives ... looking for alternatives now, which they should be. Yeah. Yeah.

Uh, and the other thing they've done is that they've resolved, uh, their dispute with The Trade Desk. Yeah. 'Cause if you remember they'd, three months ago, they'd, uh, encouraged all of their clients to no longer use The Trade Desk because through an audit there'd been some irregularities in terms of fees and, and data supply, and- Yeah ... that was, that was kind of it. Now miraculously, and we don't know the details of the resolution, but that has been resolved. Let's call it a ceasefire for the time being. Yeah. Because I think that's, there's still kind of more- Yeah ... action in that.

But they, they're getting their house in order, okay? Mm-hmm. In anticipation of going down to Cannes. Um, and then the other thing that they've kind of naughtily done is yesterday they published a satirical video which was, uh, in the style of a kind of a documentary, an expose- Mm ... where they, uh, kind of tongue in cheek, uh, accused their competitors of recklessly making, uh, promises, uh, in pitches that are either based on efficiencies gained through AI or, you know, some rather, you know, dodgy dealings in order to kind of win the business. So it was, it was kind of very kind of naughty and provocative of them.

Mm. Um, and it's rightly created a bit of an outrage within the industry because I know that they're, you know, they're, they're, they're, they're not holier than thou. But, but it is slightly ironic that a business, you know, that has never been whiter than white and pure as Publicis has, uh, can come out, you know, three days before Cannes when the great and the good of the industry will be congregating, talking about AI, uh, and, and they've kind of published this. So, so- Yeah ... at, at, uh, they're obviously stirring the fire, poking a few people- Yeah ... trying to get a reaction.

Um, and but what they will be doing in, in, in, in all seriousness in, in, in Cannes is, uh, unveiling their new operating system, the kind of Marcel 2.0. Yeah, yeah. And you know, Marcel 2.0 now benefits from LiveRamp. It's got Microsoft- ... technologies and innovations in it, um, through that kind of deal. Yeah. Uh, you know, this is the big agentic play that they're, that they're banking their, kind of, future on. You know- Yeah ... suddenly Publicis is not just a, a holding company that runs and manages agencies, it is a technology company, right? That's kind of what it's saying to the market- Mm-hmm ... when it goes to play, uh, in, in, in the south of France in between glasses of rosé kind of next. week.

So, you know- Yeah. ... I mean, a brilliant strategy. You've gotta say it's an absolute brilliant strategy. From securing Epsilon all those years ago through to the LiveRamp deal now, and then the showcase of- Marcel 2.0, you' know, have they effectively won that first phase in the, arms race for AI? Who knows. Mm. Let's see what, what happens in Cannes. next week. Yeah, yeah. Um, it's good. I mean, they're, they are ... They're, they're stereotypically kind of quite good at, at, comms, you know. I mean, and Arthur's not shy of getting on camera and kind of calling things out, as he did. He was the, first CEO to issue a statement after the Omnicom- Yeah. ... IPG acquisition or intention was announced, and he, he was the f- everyone' was saying, "Oh, this is terrible." He was the first one to say, "This is great," 'cause it sets them, you know, "We're the number one. We ... It puts us under pressure. Um, you know, being a challenger again is gonna be really good for us," all this kind of thing.

So he's always a kind of front foot. I don't know how much he had to do with this. It doesn't feel like a kind of Arthur Sadoun- Like the video ... type video play. The video. Yeah. 'Cause it just, it, it was a bit cynical. Yeah. And it's a bit clumsy, and it's obviously AI, generated. It' just doesn't have Publicis kind of- Mm ... credentials over it at all. So I, I don't know, um, whether that was something that he would be rolling, willing to roll, wishing to roll back.

But it did, it's created a big reaction from- Yeah ... of course, not least Publicis peers, who are all s- echoing exactly what you've said, which is, you, know, this is a bit kind of pot, kettle here because, you're pointing out things which we all, know that you've been participating in as equally- Yeah ... probably as, in our experience as well, as, as, as any other holding company- Yeah, that's right ... good or bad, um, over the years. And, the idea of, uh, you know, trying to sabotage a pitch process with wild commercial offers is not something foreign to Publicis Group or any of the other holding companies. I mean, they try and they always have done.

They've tried to be aggressive commercially or- Yeah ... sometimes being quite intentionally disruptive to a pitch process, which we have to try and navigate carefully. Mm. Maintain objectivity. Um, but there's a few things going on. So implications are, right, this is a really good indication of just probably the pressures actually that I think that these, particularly the big three, Publicis, WPP, and Omnicom, the pressures that they are ... or they've put themself under with investors and shareholders particularly, not just clients just yet- Mm ... because I think there's still that battle for clients. But at' th- at this point, at the moment, I think this is a battle for the market- Yeah ... perception.

Yeah. Um, Omnicom have still got to prove that their deal is worthy, you know, and they've got a tough 12 months ahead, I think, where they're gonna be challenged by existing and com- you know, advertisers that are pitching primarily in the media space, but some creative as well. Uh, WPP are still tr- really trying to right the ship. They seem like they're on the ascendancy, and they get kind of knocked back. Um, they're issuing their own press releases- this week with. their, own product announcements, which look a little bit bland, let's just say, in comparison to the, uh, to the drama of the, the French press releases maybe that are coming out.

Um, and, so I think, yeah, I think it's just showing Publicis are under a bit of pressure, you know. Um, if that's the case, if it's an intentional story. Mm. I've got a feeling it probably didn't come from the top and, it's come out- Yeah ... and, and, uh, it was, you know, premature shots fired, and there's probably some conversations that are happening on, the back end to, say- Yeah. ... "Listen, let's just not, let's not all go to war," 'cause it's not really in the interest. These big three holding companies are probably fairly well coordinated. I mean, that's always been our suspicion- Mm ... and based on what we know.

You' know, they do not like to go toe-to-toe with each other. It's very, very rare that that would happen. Yeah. Um, even Publicis', uh, you' know, argument with TheTradeDesk, which kind of intentionally spilled out pub- publicly, that was ... I said publicly, like Publicis publicly, uh, quite intentionally because I think that was a way that they felt they had to resolve it, um, which has, which has achieved that now that they've kind of come to, to come to a back-end agreement commercially of how that's gonna work.

Um, what does it mean for advertisers? Well, it's, I think it's the, it's a really good illustration of what we've w- been talking about for the last year or so, which is- this. red ocean problem, red ocean, um, phenomena that's happening in, in the agency landscape. So you've got the big three, Publicis, WPP, and Omnicom, who, as we talked about a lot, have been, uh, um, uh, mutating is the word I keep using now when I speak to analysts, is like this mutation of agency from being service businesses to sales businesses, trying to sell technology, which they're gonna be doing a lot of next week, um, trying to arbitrage their, uh, AI token deals that they're all signing with, with, uh, different AI platforms.

And then. you've got this ... So those are the kind of market leaders. Very unusual for them to be fighting amongst each other because they're all gonna be protecting market share. They' don't wanna go, they don't wanna look like they're fighting. If anything, they'll act a little bit more like a cartel. They wanna protect for themselves and all grow- Yeah ... and take market share.

The next four is what we call the red ocean, which is Dentsu, Horizon, Havas, Stagwell- Yeah ... which is really where the drama's happening- Mm ... or has been. Now, where the drama should be happening in our view- Yeah ... because that is the red ocean. Those are f- four agencies under incredible pressure. Um, and really in a fight for survival. We don't think, that- those four agencies will still be around in two or three years' time. There's going to be, uh, either destruction, which we hope that's not the case, or some form of acquisition, partnership, other investment.

And then looming over all of this, of course, is, uh, well, Accenture, w- who have just started making some acquisitions themselves, and we'll come to that next week. Um, and then you've got the, what we keep referring to as this kind of long tail of independence, and I wish we had a better name for that, and we're trying to create, create one. I wanted to call out one of those, the CEO of an, of an independent, privately-owned agency that many of the viewers will know, uh, called Cross Media.

And the founder and CEO, uh, Cameron, uh, was one, one, I think one of my f- favorite or most interesting reactions, I think. Uh, taking advantage of the very rare occurrence for agency, big agencies to be fighting. Just saying, "I wish I did not have to post this," which is great. Everyone's like, "Okay, great. What is he gonna say?" Uh, 'cause Cameron's not short of an opinion or two, and, and, you know, Cross Media does position and pride itself as being a transparent agency that doesn't follow the same kind of trading practices perhaps as some of the bigger agencies.

"We compete with Publicis and all the holding companies. This is a fact. We are a fraction of their size, and we win often. Why is that? Trust. We have first-hand experience with all the shenanigans," as he calls them, "and Publicis is no better or different." Which was, which was kind of our view as well. "Tens of millions promised in cash, free Super Bowl spots, the list goes on, and all existed long before anyone was discussed, uh, discussing agentic operating systems." Which is kind of true, because this get, this does get clouded behind technology.

Mm. Um, but actually it's what's really at stake here is the fundamental commercial operating model of these agencies, which is really up for scrutiny now, which is what we're looking at. "Yes, the AI washing movement is here, but let's be very clear, the bad behavior behind buying client business did not start with agents. It began when Publicis and their peers stopped being agencies." Which is really the root of the red ocean that we, you know, we've been talking about, is this, this mutation of business model.

Um- Mm. So, uh, for the, let's think about, okay, what should clients be thinking? Because this is all, is this all just- I think it's just noise ... noise there- I mean, I think it's just- ... or is it farcical? I think it's just farcical. I think it'll all be forgotten, you know. And, uh, certainly the video piece, and I think it's just being mischievous, quite frankly. Yeah.

Um, I think, you know, the, the, the fundamental questions that clients need to be asking, and it's, there's really only one, is, "How can your agency maximize the impact and the value of my media investments to drive my business growth?" And, and you have to find some degree of truth in their answer, some degree of reassurance. Now, some agencies will come back and they' will, they' will point to their, you know, agentic operating systems. Others will talk about, you know, their data sources that they' have. Others will talk about the craft of strategic planning.

But fundamentally, your agency partners are there to help you deliver growth for your business, and they' have to illustrate that kind of value. Simple question. Good. Okay. Very good. Um, okay, let's move on. We're gonna talk about Denso. Mm. I'm melting in this heat, by the way. Are you? It's not even that hot, but I'm just, I've become so accustomed to- You're not used to it, aren't you? ... this thing in America. No, I know. I know. Support it for everybody.

Um, okay, before we move on, let's just remind you, if you're a regular viewer, um, of Media Snack, then you'll know, uh, a little bit of background. But just, I want to, for those that are new, remind you just the way we think about media. Because David and I are founders of a, uh, an advisory and analytics business called ID Comms, and we work with many of the brands, that also work with these holding companies. A lot of our clients work with these major agencies.

Um, but this is the way that we think about the media world, okay? So we think about, uh, the internal capabilities of the advertiser, and, this is the way we encourage CMOs and CFOs to think about media, because most of their marcoms money, you know, obviously goes into media. It's incredibly expensive, uh, complicated, and risky. We encourage brands to think about their internal capabilities, so to just try to be as good as media as they can possibly be, so optimizing their media capabilities.

Secondly, we encourage CMOs to then think strategically about optimizing their media partners, so that's agencies and other, you know, uh, platforms and tech and other vendors that sit in that partnership sphere. And then finally, to kind of track all of their different investments, just to make sure that they can track where the money goes, maximize all of that allocation, make sure it's work- working as hard as possible, and minimize the risks that go with that.

So we see this as a kind of three-stage or three-part industry, and, and, and this is the lens through which really we think about things on Media Snack, just so you know. Okay. Um, right, tell me about Denso, then- Yeah ... because, uh, we're kind of enjoying a little bit of- Mm ... a little bit of resurgence. Right. It seems like positivity about- I hope so ... Denso at the moment, which is good.

I hope so. I mean, you know, uh, in, for the sake of complete transparency, both you and I used to work at Aegis- We did ... which is, and now Denso. Um, and, and, and- Although we have no affiliation with it or no commercial relationship- Yeah. Absolutely ... with it or anything like that. Yeah. No. But, but, you know, but, you know, I, I, I, I've always kind of ... When, when Denso have been struggling, I've always, I've always kind of had sympathy for them, and, and, and they've struggled significantly over the last 18 to 24 months.

Um, and, uh, one of the catalysts for that kind of period of, of turmoil was when the Japanese ownership in, in, in Tokyo decided to put the international business up for sale. Yeah. Um, and, uh- They struggled to find buyers for the international business, and so it, it put those people that were operating, working really hard in Dentsu in a, in an almost impossible position because they were trying to look after their existing client base, who were petrified that their business was going to be, uh, managed by, by, a business that, no longer had ownership in the ownership structure that' they decided to give the business in the first place.

Yeah. And, then those- Mm ... people that were trying to pitch their business had no faith in committing to Dentsu because they didn't know who was gonna own them in, in- Yeah ... two, three, f- four years' time. So a major, major problem. Almost like the perfect storm. Yeah. And so, um, a lot of Dentsu's existing clients put their business up for review. Uh, they were struggling to win any net new business, and to add insult to injury, Microsoft, one of their biggest accounts, gifted their entire business to Publicis.

Mm. For various reasons, but gifted it' to Publicis. Um, and I was, I was genuinely concerned that they were gonna basically implode. I didn't see any way out of that. And- Yeah. ... uh, so the, the Dentsu team did t- did two things strategically. They' changed their CEO, so the outgoing CEO retired. They' brought in a, uh, a long-term Dentsu guy, but young, Western-thinking, a guy called Takeshi Sano as the new CEO, and they' took the international business off the market. Yeah.

And, they- French guy. Is he French, French guy? What, is that, is that how I pronounced it? No, no, no, it's not. No. No. No, I'm just ... But we, we should point out he is Japanese. He's Japanese. Absolutely. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. He's Japanese. Um, and, and, and, and, and based in Tokyo, although he's doing a lot of traveling. Um, and the other thing that they did is they declared they were going to invest in, in Dentsu's international business, and they were gonna reposition that part of the business for, for growth, for revenue generation and growth.

Um, now, that's great in theory- Yeah ... but they needed a proof point, and that proof point came in the retention of one of Dentsu's biggest, probably most cherished global piece of business, which is the, the Heineken business. Yeah. So Heineken went to review whilst all the shenanigans was, going on, and, uh, Dentsu retained that media business. Yeah. And that is a, a major, major, major, uh, sign of, of faith, I think, in, in, in the industry and, and in the, in their business.

Yeah. And, and from what I understand, uh, Takeshi was, was heavily involved, and was very active in- Mm-hmm ... that process, and illustrating that the, u- to him, client centricity, uh, the faith that he has in his team in delivering growth for a business like Heineken kind of starts at the top. And so- Yeah. ... I'm hoping that' this is a renaissance for, for Dentsu, and I hope that. they're, they're able to sort of stabilize now, m- maintain a degree of, of security through keeping the businesses that are still up for review, but also growing new businesses.

And I, and I ... Because the, the industry needs a strong, I think, entrepreneurial network like, uh, like, like, uh, Dentsu. Yeah. Yeah, very good. So well done on them. Yeah, they've done, they've done very well. And, and, uh, he's been showing up in some of the pictures that we've run- Yeah, exactly ... um, as well. So clearly, uh, uh, making that decision to be very visible, which is unlike ... Historically, Dentsu's participation in the international business has been very, very limited, you know, from a, from a kind of- Yeah ... from a h- Japanese headquarters very rarely saw any involvement outside of, uh, the Japanese business itself since they, made that acquisition of Aegis, you know, 10, 10 or so years ago.

Um, uh, so I think that's good. It's kind of built a bridge. It's gonna be really, really important. I mean, s- some of the implications for, uh, for that, I think, the, the first thing is when we think about the Red Ocean and we think about those f- where they're competing, Dentsu, by their own admission, they' don't, they're not competing with Publicis, WPP, and Omnicom. You know, if you talk to, kind of, leadership at, at Dentsu, maybe they' might talk differently to their investors, but, uh, they tend not, they're not really wanting to go head-to-head with those three. So they are trying to create a point of difference.

The reason that we've put those four agencies in that Red Ocean is because they are at a bit of a crossroads. They have to decide whether they're gonna follow those big three agencies into those kind of business models, which are arbitrage-based, sales-based business models. A totally valid business model, but it's a specific b- business model, and, you know, buyer beware, and that sort of, all that stuff. Or are they gonna be, say, "We're nothing to do with that, we're not doing any of that kind of stuff, and we're gonna be wholly transparent," which is, you know, where Cameron at Cross Media and a bunch of others are kind of sitting over there waiting for, uh, you know, these opportunities to arrive- Yeah ... to say, "We don't do any of that kind of stuff."

The four agencies that we talk about in this Red Ocean, the Dentsu, the Havas, the Horizons, and the Stagwell, are kind of a bit of both, and they're caught in the middle. The danger is, is they're just gonna get squished by two principles- Mm ... um, on each side, and not really stand for anything. And, you know, Horizon is a, still a privately owned entrepreneurial business, heavyweight in the US and North America, um, and they're gonna be fine. You know, you kind of s- can see that they can s- they can f- they carve out their own significant niche in America. Probably be up for sale at some point. Yeah.

Um, Havas is, as, we've talked about before, is exploring kind of partnerships with other agencies. Uh, you know, they've got a good creative footprint there. Um, Stagwell, again, probably being built to sell. They, won't say that, but that's what it looks like they're, they're, they're doing. Dentsu weren't quite sure what we're gonna- what they were gonna be, couldn't really see the way forward.

Um, it was a year ago, I, I was, when I was in Cannes last year, I sat with Dentsu's team on their ... Dentsu have ... If, if anyone's been to Cannes, you know, you've seen Dentsu have got really the kind of one of the prime spots in Cannes because they've got this little pier. They, they've got a bit of beach that's got this little pier outside. So if it's a bit hot and sweaty, you're trying to head to Dentsu's pier. You sit at the end of that, and you get this nice sea breeze, so it's a real tasty spot.

Anyway, I was lucky enough to kind of be out at the end of the pier with some of the Dentsu management, and I said, I said to them a year ago, "Why is this not Japanese?" Right? "Why ... You've got all this Japanese heritage. Why do, why are you ... Y- your beach looks the same as everybody else's, serving the same stuff, playing the same music." Mm.

You know, but it's funny, isn't it, that they've never, they've never leveraged that. So when we heard that they were gonna get this, uh, Mr. Sano, uh, Takeshi Sano to take over, who is fluent in English- Yeah ... a good bridge between the Tokyo management and the international business, wants to be visible to clients, international clients, thought, "Oh, so good. It's gonna bring some, hopefully some kind of Japanese flair."

You'd said to me, uh, we won't say who it was, but we were speaking to a marketer recently who had done a, had done a deal with, uh, Dentsu or was thinking about a deal with Dentsu and said, "It's, it is different shaking hands with a Japanese leader." Mm. You know, it's not an experience that a lot of Western marketers have had for a while, and it does, it feels different. Yeah. There's a ... And, and in an industry that is, has questions of trust and integrity, there's something quite reassuring about the handshake of a Japanese executive- You're right ... I think.

Yeah. And that may be just a s- maybe a silly, symbolic thing, but right now, as, a CMO, you kind of s- you, you want things to hold onto. You know? Yeah. I mean, excuse the pun, but I mean, just so shaking hands with, with a kind of Japanese, you know, the head of a Japanese business that's been around 100 years and will be around another 100- Mm. ... and is not some flash in the pan piece of ad tech, you know, whimsy, uh, I think is incredibly powerful.

Yeah. And so I think it's a g- a master- masterful move- Mm ... either his choice or somebody else's to have him show up to shake the hands of clients- Yeah ... is, is I think a, it' is a new experience for people- Yeah ... that I think marketers will be quite keen doing. Yeah. So he's a s- he's a superpower, I think. Mm. I agree. A, a real superpower, and by reputation, a great, you know, a great operator. So, uh, looks like they- they're, in good hands, and w- and we like to see.

So it's kind of put Dentsu back in that race. Mm. Uh, I think they, they' will, they' will do well to retain some more of their clients that I think they' felt were at risk, 'cause there have- Yeah ... been some question marks over the continuity of Dentsu. Um, and I think they' will have a good run at providing a different point of view, even if it's just a culturally kind of different experience. I would say play it up. I mean, I would go full-on Japanese if I was Dentsu. Do you know, what I mean? I, I just think for the cultural experience, why not?

Mm-hmm. I mean, Japanese businesses have very good reputations for a reason. That's good. You know, they don't talk about quality. They just deliver it. Mm. Whereas a lot of other businesses would just talk a lot, as we've been talking about, a lot of press releases, a lot of hot air, um, and not much on the delivery. So I think- Yeah ... I think we, the industry could do with a bit of Japanese sen- sensibilities.

Um- Good. Well said ... so good luck to them. Yeah. Good. Uh, what, what, what should marketers be thinking about, other than maybe kind of making a little queue outside his door, I'd imagine? Yeah. Well, that's the thing. I think, I think, um, y- you know, if you've gotta believe that, that they have big com- big ambitions for the future to turn this business around, if you're an existing client, you know, get some commitments that, that, that you're gonna be looked after. Yeah.

Uh, and, and I don't think that's opportunist. I think that's just sensible business practice. Yeah. And if you are a non-Dentsu client, don't discard them. Uh, let's see what Pi- you know, see what Heineken saw. What was the magic that convinced Heineken? Mm. Let's just be open to that, and, and, um, and I think that they are most definitely open for business, and I think that whichever way they decide to position their proposition, uh, and how they decide to, uh, contend and compete with the marketplace, uh, you know, what, all it takes is one big win, and then the, the domino effect and the momentum and the positive momentum can see these things change.

So- Yeah ... um, so, yeah. I mean, I, I, I would kind of knock on. their door. Absolutely. Yeah. Okay. Very good. Um, okay, we're nearly at time, so just, uh, thanks for that. I'm gonna have to go jump in a pool somewhere, cool down. Um, as always, we're live every Friday, 11:00 AM Eastern, 4:00 PM UK time, and, um, equivalents around the world. Uh, you can see at the bottom of the screen here, go to idcoms.com, uh, if you wanna start a journey of just trying to get better at media, improve media for your brands.

We work with, just with brands, and we advise brands, uh, in those three areas, to get really good internally, to get the most out of your media, uh, agency partners, and then to track that money, make it work as hard as possible. Uh, good. Okay, mate. Nice one. We'll see you next week, everybody. Thank you. Well done. Bye.

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